“Do aborted babies go to heaven?”

Steve Brown:
Do aborted babies go to heaven? The answer to that and other questions on Key Life.

Matthew Porter:
This is Key Life dedicated to the message that the only people who get any better are those who know that if they don’t get any better, God will still love them anyway. That teaching raises a lot of questions. So here’s author and seminary professor Steve Brown, along with Pete Alwinson from ForgeBibleStudy.com with answers from the Bible that’ll make you free.

Steve Brown:
Thank you Matthew. Hello, Peter. I just want you to know the question I just teased this broadcast with, is yours.

Pete Alwinson:
Ah.

Steve Brown:
I know that you can speak from Sinai on that. And I, that’s why you’re here. When it’s above me and I can’t deal with it. And I’m not exactly sure what to say. I’m gonna give it to you

Pete Alwinson:
And then I’ll speak until

Steve Brown:
Something comes to mind. [Laughing]

Pete Alwinson:
you figure something to say.

Steve Brown:
That’s Pete Alwinson. Be sure and go to ForgeBibleStudy.com. That is an absolutely amazing and wonderful organization. I mean, they’re dealing with everything, Bible, God relationships and current issues. And this is a place where Christians need to get together and talk about things and listen to people, who’ve got things to say, primarily Pete. And if you go to ForgeBibleStudy.com, you can get a lot of things from Pete Alwinson. Video and audio and his itinerary. And you’ll be glad I told you about it. Pete comes in every Friday and we spend Friday programs and have done this for years. Answering questions. The many questions we get from you guys. You can ask a question any time you want. You can call 1-800-KEY-LIFE. And that’s open 24 seven, record your question. And sometimes we put it on the air. Or you can send it to

Key Life Network
P.O. Box 5000
Maitland, Florida 32794

In Canada it’s

Key Life Canada
P.O. Box 28060
Waterloo, Ontario, N2L 6J8

Or you can email your question to [email protected]. And those are places and you knew I was going to say this, cause this is an expensive ministry and I’m not going to beat you over the head with it, but I’m going to say it. If you don’t help us, we can’t do this. And a lot of you do, but if you’re not one of them and you can. And, and you don’t, you’re going to get the hives. How’s that for a manipulative statement? Actually, we understand when you can’t do it, but if you can help us, do. We are a member of ECFA in the States and CCCC in Canada. And we’ll squeeze every dime for the glory of God. Hey, Pete, lead us in prayer and then we’ll get to these questions.

Pete Alwinson:
Let’s pray. Our great God. What a privilege to come to you at the end of this week and to glorify you and to remember who you are. We honor you father, son and Holy spirit. We thank you that you loved us before we loved you. We thank you, Jesus, that you came before we asked you to come and be our savior. Thank you that you know everything about us and in spite of ourselves, you love us. And so we honor you and praise you and we come to you with our needs. We have so many. You know us, and you know the jobs that are needed. You know the healing that has to take place in many lives and the relationships. And so father, with everything we come to you and we ask that you would be with us. We ask for our pastors and priests, leaders, teachers, worship directors, Lord, thank you for them and how, how important they are and are lives. And we pray that you would use him this weekend, as we come to worship. Lord, we pray that we would be open to their ministry, your ministry through them, in our lives. And now Lord, we just commit this time of Q & A to you. We pray that you would use it. We honor you in Jesus’ holy name. Amen.

Steve Brown:
Amen. Pete, this first question is an email, and it is, do aborted and miscarried babies go to heaven?

Pete Alwinson:
It really, it really is an important question.

Steve Brown:
Yeah. It really is.

Pete Alwinson:
I want to say one thing by introduction, and then I’m going to throw it back to you because you have probably, we were kidding before him and you have a lot of good things to say on this, but I, what I want to say just by way of quick introduction is that I am so thankful that, uh, that this issue’s come up again, because there are so many social issues

Steve Brown:
Yeah.

Pete Alwinson:
that this often gets lost. That abortion, some people are tired of hearing about abortion and they say, well, there are other social issues. And, and I would say, I agree, there are many other social issues that are very important, but don’t say this one is still not very important.

Steve Brown:
I think it’s the most important issue of our time.

Pete Alwinson:
How a nation treats its unborn is indicative of that nation. So I’m thankful for this, a brother or sister who sent it in. So how would you, you give, give a good theological base for this?

Steve Brown:
Well, I don’t think the Bible addresses this at any point specifically, but the Bible does over and over again inform us about when we become human, in the mother’s womb. And so it stands to reason that whatever you would say about a human being, you ought to be able to say about an unborn human being. Now, I don’t know how that works out. I, you know, I really don’t. Are you, uh, obviously, um, an unborn human being, doesn’t have a developed personality and awareness, the kinds of things that happen as we grow older after we’re born, but I don’t think we can in any way, subtract from the reality of that baby, as a human baby.

Pete Alwinson:
Right. Right.

Steve Brown:
And so I want to say, yeah, God’s going to take care of that. They’re not a blob of protoplasm.

Pete Alwinson:
Right.

Steve Brown:
That’s a human.

Pete Alwinson:
Right.

Steve Brown:
And you can’t fiddle with that. And I feel Pete, uh, that can’t ever deal with this issue without speaking to those, who have been through the horror of abortion themselves. I have a friend who wouldn’t allow the people in his church to march in pro-life marches, because he said that people that drive by and give you the thumbs up, they agreed with you before you marched. And the ones that made an obscene gesture, they disagreed with you before the march. But every woman, or every person who had somebody they loved, who had gone through an abortion, will never again, darken the doors of your church. And so I have great compassion,

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
if you’ve been there. If you’ve, that’s not the unforgivable sin,

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right.

Steve Brown:
you were lied to, you were told things that weren’t true and you’re forgiven. But we can’t back off on the issue and we can’t even do it on the question like this.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. No, you’re right. I appreciate that. It’s a compassionate way of viewing this whole thing.

Steve Brown:
Yeah.

Pete Alwinson:
The Bible really does not give us the answers on this, uh, on this issue in particular, but we do know God has just. We know he’s good. We know he’s merciful. We know he’s gracious and we lean on the character of God and in a case just like this.

Steve Brown:
That’s so good. And so right on. Well.

Steve Brown:
I don’t want to talk about it anymore.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s rough.

Steve Brown:
That’s a hard subject, but it is a very, very important

Pete Alwinson:
Yup.

Steve Brown:
subject. Hey, let’s go to our phone lines.

Caller 1:
Where do the 12 step mutual support groups fit in with contemporary Christianity? Thank you.

Steve Brown:
I think that, uh, that was a little bit difficult to hear, but I think he was asking about support groups and our producer, Jeremy listened to it several times and he said, that’s what he was asking.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
What about support groups and the church?

Pete Alwinson:
Where do they fit in? You know, you know, when you think of probably the oldest modern support group. You’ve got AA. Right?

Steve Brown:
That’s true.

Pete Alwinson:
And AA really stemmed from some Christian guys that figured out, that they needed God to help them. And now AA

Steve Brown:
And they needed each other.

Pete Alwinson:
And they needed each other. And they needed some of the resources that only the gospel can give you, to deal with their addiction. Like, honesty, owning your own sin and the people you’re hurt and going back and talking to those people. And so, you know, so support groups are Biblical, they’re Christian entirely.

Steve Brown:
Oh, I agree.

Pete Alwinson:
In their origin and in the basis. Now some support groups may have a practical dimension that we couldn’t say is Biblical, but in general. Can we say?

Steve Brown:
Oh yeah, I agree. I, you know, I think AA, did the job that we didn’t do and that’s kind of a judgment on the church. We should have done that ourselves, instead of requiring, but I’m supportive of AA, because I’ve seen the difference they make and the Christians that are involved there. And every time I say that I get letters from people who say that it’s pagan, it was found by, you show me, some time somebody criticized Dwight L. Moody for his methods in evangelism. He said, I liked my way of doing it better than your way of not doing it.

Pete Alwinson:
Right. Right.

Steve Brown:
So, they’re doing some good things.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
You can take a 12 step program, make it into a pagan self-help kind of thing.

Pete Alwinson:
You can.

Steve Brown:
Of course, and people do that all the time.

Pete Alwinson:
Yup.

Steve Brown:
But that doesn’t mean the 12 step program isn’t Biblical.

Pete Alwinson:
In it’s basis. It really is. It really is. And, and support, you know, the idea of a support group is that we need each, well that’s community. And the Bible is filled with that.

Steve Brown:
Oh Yeah.

Pete Alwinson:
Of the support that we have with each other in the body of Christ. So.

Steve Brown:
I agree. And for other issues too, aside from 12 step, yeah. You know, we had at our church, a group that met right after, right before Christmas, for people who had lost loved ones

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
over that year.

Pete Alwinson:
Yup.

Steve Brown:
And man, they made a difference. Or you get parents who have children that are gay and don’t know what to do

Pete Alwinson:
Yup.

Steve Brown:
with it, or where are transgender. And though, you know, you can’t walk those dark roads by yourself. You really can’t, we need each other and that’s the reason God created the church.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah, that’s right. And, and, and we, and, and men in particular who are less likely to want to lean on other people and be honest are realizing, Hey, come on. Uh, I don’t have to be strong. God, God was strong for me. Christ did the work. And so I can, I can be honest and authentic. Grace enables us to be authentic. So grace. The principle of grace that we’re all about here at Key Life. I mean, that, that begs for the reality of support groups.

Steve Brown:
It really, he does. And you know, you’ve hit the mother load. Pete’s ministry is a ministry primarily to men. And, you know, men’s organizations start up and die all over the place. And I’ve seen that all my life.

Pete Alwinson:
Sure.

Steve Brown:
But you have hit it, that men yearn for the kind of relationship that can be supportive, people with whom they can be honest, people that they can share with and lean on

Pete Alwinson:
Right.

Steve Brown:
Can be a bridge over troubled waters. And you’ve done that.

Pete Alwinson:
Wow.

Steve Brown:
That’s what Forge is about,

Pete Alwinson:
You know, it comes from this grace principle we have the Gospel.

Steve Brown:
At the very heart of who we are. So if you have a support group in your church, support it. If you’re a drunk, go to it. Ok. Or if you have a need, form one. That’s what the church is all about. We’ve got to go. Key Life is a listener supported production of Key Life Network.