“What about divorce?”

Steve Brown:
What about divorce? The answer to that and other questions on this edition of Key Life.

Matthew Porter:
This is Key Life, dedicated to the message that the only people who get any better are those who know that if they don’t get any better, God will still love them anyway. That teaching raises a lot of questions, so here’s author and seminary professor Steve Brown along with Pete Alwinson from ForgeTruth with answers from the Bible that will make you free.

Steve Brown:
Thank you Matthew. Hi Pete.

Pete Alwinson:
Hey man. How you doing?

Steve Brown:
I’m doing really well.

Pete Alwinson:
Good.

Steve Brown:
You know, we’ve said it a thousand times. For years, you and I didn’t do well on Fridays because everybody else was jumping for joy because they were going to be off.

Pete Alwinson:
I know.

Steve Brown:
And we were just beginning to enter the morass of putting a sermon together.

Pete Alwinson:
No, no, no, no. Mine were done by Friday noon. You didn’t start till Friday morning.

Steve Brown:
No, I didn’t. And sometimes like one o’clock in the morning on Sunday. And, but you went away generally every year and prepared sermons for the next year.

Pete Alwinson:
Well, we were about ready, but we both had the same experience like, okay, everybody’s going to relax, but we got to gear up.

Steve Brown:
That’s right.

Pete Alwinson:
And we might mess it up. And we don’t want to do that.

Steve Brown:
You know, I used to say, I don’t want to bring shame on the name of Jesus. That was nonsense. I didn’t want to bring shame on me. So, and I’ve just confessed it. And I’m forgiven. So, deal with it. Hey, listen, we love your questions. You can call 1-800-KEY-LIFE, 24 7, and just follow the instructions and we’ll record your voice and sometimes put it on the air. Or you can send your question to

Key Life Network
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or if you’re in Canada, it’s

Key Life Canada

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or you can e-mail your question to [email protected] and if you can help us financially, those would be the places where you could do that. And when you do, we take your gift and use it in the lives of people who can’t afford to give, which makes you a champion. So, if you can help us financially, do and be as generous as you can. If you can’t, we understand that, say a prayer for this ministry. Pete, speaking of prayer, you pray for us and then we’ll turn to these questions.

Pete Alwinson:
You got it. You got it. Our Great God, what a joy at the end of this week to stop for just a minute and remember that you are God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And we honor you as immortal, invisible, the only wise God who is sovereign over all. And Lord, we have seen your sovereignty this past week, we know you’ve been in charge. And sometimes we’ve feared the worst and it didn’t happen. And so, we thank you for your goodness and your grace. And Lord Jesus, we ask that you continue to meet us and allow your grace to transform us to be your men and women who follow you. And now, Lord, we’re going to do some Q&A, but even as we do that, we ask for your wisdom. And we ask as our leaders prepare, our worship directors, pastors, teachers, as they wrap up what they’re going to do and leading us in worship this week. And we pray for your power to flow. We pray for the health of our churches and ask that Lord you would be glorified in all who lead us. And now, we commit this time to you as we pray these things in Jesus’ strong name. Amen.

Steve Brown:
Amen. Pete, this first questions in e-mail. And actually, two questions. What does the Bible teach about divorce? And what about divorce due to abuse?

Pete Alwinson:
Well, that’s not a, that’s not a call in. We’re just dealing with it. That’s a big one, isn’t it?

Steve Brown:
It really is.

Pete Alwinson:
Matthew 19 is the key place to go to initially look at this whole thing. And God did originally give the freedom to divorce, mainly so that things could be done decently and in order.

Steve Brown:
Because of their hardness of heart, Jesus said.

Pete Alwinson:
Hardness of heart. Yeah, women were particularly, have been historically, particularly vulnerable down through the ages, it’s Old Testament and New Testament. And so, that’s why Jesus said there had to be a certificate of divorce. I guess the big question is, How does the New Testament give us legitimate reasons for divorce with the right to remarry? How do you look at that?

Steve Brown:
Well, there are two very specific reasons, of course. One is unfaithfulness, adultery, and the other is when an unbeliever no longer wants to be married to a believer and they’re free. I do not believe that list is complete. When you bring up abuse, I have friends who are pastors, who tell women you just have to deal with it, but you have to stay. I never did that. You know, I went to the guy and abused him a bit. And then I told her you ought to leave until things get straightened out. And if they don’t, then get a divorce. And that’s not because I take divorce lightly, nor do you.

Pete Alwinson:
No, not at all. Not at all.

Steve Brown:
But life is hard sometimes, and there are bad things that happen.

Pete Alwinson:
Totally, and I think kind of the issue is what breaks the marriage bond? And that’s why infidelity literally breaks that bond. Now, once one of the partners has been unfaithful, it doesn’t mean you have to divorce, but God gives that understanding that infidelity is so intense that most people can’t get over it. And so, he gives them the right to end that marriage and to marry again. But a believer, if you were to remarry.

Steve Brown:
Oh, yeah. Don’t go marry a pagan.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s right. Double the issue. Make it worse.

Steve Brown:
You know, the Bible is a very, very practical book. And some people don’t realize that. They think it’s just a spiritual nonsense. You can’t live this, but you really can. And I think Moses and Deuteronomy and his granting of the certificate of divorce. Men, you talk about women’s rights? This was the beginning of women’s rights.

Pete Alwinson:
Deuteronomy, 4,000 years ago.

Steve Brown:
I know. And it is so good because what a guy could do if she burned the steak for dinner the night before, he could divorce her and he was free and she was still married. And Moses said, in Hebrew, of course. You’ve got to be kidding. That’s crazy. God’s not that way.

Pete Alwinson:
That would have been impressive had you said that in Hebrew.

Steve Brown:
I can’t.

Pete Alwinson:
I thought you would have been speaking in tongues.

Steve Brown:
It really would. But the Bible is very practical, especially dealing with these kinds of things. And you and I, over a lot of years in the pastorate, have dealt with this. When I was young, I was very absolute, but as I got older and tasted the salt of the tears of the people I loved, I began to see things are complicated sometimes.

Pete Alwinson:
And those pastors that say you should stay and endure the abuse, I think are violating other teachings of Scripture. Now, I want to say one other thing though, on this such before we move on, and that is that I want, I’d love all Christians to be able to read Matthew 19 as thoroughly as you can.

Steve Brown:
There are two, by the way, before you say it, there are two words there that are used to, translated as divorce. One is the certificate that you talked about and the other is the formal word for divorce. Once you see that, that begins to be a very practical passage. I’m sorry. Go ahead.

Pete Alwinson:
That’s okay. You know, it’s, it’s important to understand today, and cause you know, I’m in the man’s world a lot these days. And 69 percent of all divorces are instituted by women and women today at 21st century America need to really be more careful because they’re told to take control of their life and Christian women are struggling with being submissive. What does that mean even today? How difficult that is. So, there are men that are abusive. Get away, get counseling, protect yourself. There are also men who are being abused themselves. And it’s a very complicated culture we live in now in this regard. And many men that I’ve talked to that have not been abusers that don’t want the divorce are forced to deal with the consequences of divorce. And so, the male female equation is different at the beginning of the 21st century here.

Steve Brown:
It really is. That’s a wise statement, Pete. I agree with that. And you’re dealing with men all the time. And you’re not saying, well, it’s women’s fault.

Pete Alwinson:
No, no.

Steve Brown:
Because it’s, you know, it takes two to tango.

Pete Alwinson:
Totally. And I still say that we’re most of the problem. You know, generally speaking, we’re pretty hardcore and we’ve got a lot of rough edges. So, I still think that we’re a lot of the time, the major problem. I mean, it’s not women that go out and start doing mass killings. It’s guys.

Steve Brown:
Yeah, that’s a good point. You know, I have a friend who wrote a book on marriage and he said.

Men are the keepers of the garden.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah, we have to be.

Steve Brown:
Is that a good way to put it or what?

Pete Alwinson:
We have to be, we need to lead well and it’s hard.

Steve Brown:
Sure it is. What are the qualifications for serving church leadership?

Pete Alwinson:
Oh man. I Timothy 3, Titus 2.

Steve Brown:
And does anybody live up to that completely?

Pete Alwinson:
Well, as you said, I think this time, or was it the last broadcast, only you’ve reached total sanctification.

Steve Brown:
Yeah, well, I do, of course.

Pete Alwinson:
You have, but no, most of us don’t.

Steve Brown:
Those are all marks of a leader. And they’re good marks of a leader. But every leader has faults. Every leader fails. Every leader does, but you want somebody in leadership who fulfills those things in the passages you quoted.

Pete Alwinson:
Yep.

Steve Brown:
And because they know what they’re doing.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah. And there’s growth and maturity. I mean, that first one above reproach sort of gives the overall picture that they’re generally more mature and ready to serve.

Steve Brown:
That’s true.

Pete Alwinson:
Nobody’s perfect.

Steve Brown:
You know, one time, we have a mutual friend in Ray Cortese.

Pete Alwinson:
Yeah.

Steve Brown:
Who serves a church over on the other coast. And I was there speaking one time when he was ordaining new elders and deacons for the church. And he asked them all to come forward, so the congregation could see who they were. And he said you think these guys are here because they’re better than you, they’re worse. And the difference between them and you is that they know they are and I want to follow a man like that. And I thought that was a cool thing.

Pete Alwinson:
That was good.

Steve Brown:
You know, we’re running out of time. And I hate it when it’s like this, when we, well, we’ve got a minute. Where’s paradise?

Pete Alwinson:
Heaven. The presence of God.

Steve Brown:
I know. Where is it?

Pete Alwinson:
I, you know.

Steve Brown:
That’s what the e-mail person asked.

Pete Alwinson:
I don’t know where. I don’t have the longitude and latitude. I mean.

Steve Brown:
Is it up or down? Or is it here? Or is it out there? Or in here?

Pete Alwinson:
Wherever God is.

Steve Brown:
There’s paradise.

Pete Alwinson:
Where would you say?

Steve Brown:
I would.

Pete Alwinson:
Okay.

Steve Brown:
In fact, that’s profound.

Pete Alwinson:
Okay. Wherever you go. Okay. And then.

Steve Brown:
But could you say a little bit more?

Pete Alwinson:
Well, then eventually it’ll be the new heaven and new earth, right? We’re not going to be floating around in ethereal mist.

Steve Brown:
That’s true. And that works. Guys, thank you so much for being a part of this. We know that that is a gift and we’re glad you’re here. Only one other thing to say before we go. Key Life is a listener supported production of Key Life Network.